Councils have seen substantial cuts in both England (19% for non-education spending) and Wales (12%) since 2009-10. Big changes to finance systems are either ongoing or planned. In England, for instance, business rates retention, the so-called Fair Funding review of assessments of spending needs and revenue-raising capabilities, and potentially big changes to social care funding, could have major impacts on the risks and incentives councils face. In Wales, the government has committed to considering potentially far-reaching reforms to local taxes. What lessons can each country draw from the other's experience? In this presentation, David Phillips, IFS associate director, given at the Wales Public Services 2025 conference in Cardiff, offers his thoughts.